Ennobling Magic

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Brad Henderson
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 6th, 2017, 11:22 am


Fitst rule is, Don't take a position that you cannot defend. Work out all the angles before you start, anticipate every possible counter and be ready to respond swiftly, for he who hesitates is lost.


ah - so you CAN tell us how an audience would know you are lying unless you get busted from incompetence?

or do you mean you can now establish in some way that being busted in a verbal lie is more damming than being caught in a non verbal one?

OR have you research that suggests that real people expect magicians to have taken a vow of honesty?

Brad Henderson
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 6th, 2017, 11:25 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
or did I miss something?


Yes. What a performer says and does on a stage is not lying. Your whole premise is incorrect.


Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.

If lying isn't lying when magicians do it on stage, then may we infer that deception isn't deception and that top hats aren't top hats?


it's all lies

the issue is that the audience accepts lies as a tool of art and theater. at
which point we return to the picasso quote which keyes has yet to refute.

keyes assumes all people consider lying an affront at all times.

Keyes seems to think of the magician as a lecturer not an artist.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » December 6th, 2017, 12:49 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
or did I miss something?


Yes. What a performer says and does on a stage is not lying. Your whole premise is incorrect.


Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.

If lying isn't lying when magicians do it on stage, then may we infer that deception isn't deception and that top hats aren't top hats?


Correct. You finally understand. "Deception" is a word. "Top hat" consists of two words. The map is not the thing which it describes. There is no nutrition gained by eating a slip of paper that says "EGGS" on it. A "lie" on stage is a story about a lie, not a lie.

Theater is predicated on the word IF...

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » December 6th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.


Because Brad has made it abundantly clear that he understands the difference between lying and "lying." You, on the other hand, think that both have the same effect on an audience. They don't. If you don't believe me, take a poll of all here who have been members of audiences.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 6th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:
Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.


Because Brad has made it abundantly clear that he understands the difference between lying and "lying." You, on the other hand, think that both have the same effect on an audience. They don't. If you don't believe me, take a poll of all here who have been members of audiences.


As in "lying" isn't lying unless you get caught?

Seems to me if "lying" wasn't lying, there'd be nothing to catch.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 6th, 2017, 1:54 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.


Because Brad has made it abundantly clear that he understands the difference between lying and "lying." You, on the other hand, think that both have the same effect on an audience. They don't. If you don't believe me, take a poll of all here who have been members of audiences.


As in "lying" isn't lying unless you get caught?

Seems to me if "lying" wasn't lying, there'd be nothing to catch.


no. lying is only relevant if you get caught.

and it is your PUZZLER approach that puts the audience into the role of trick guesser

the audience has no need to 'catch' the fake knife in sweeney todd because they care more about the experience than the method.

you don't catch 1)what you know exists and 2( gets in the way of having the experience you came for.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » December 6th, 2017, 3:34 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.


Because Brad has made it abundantly clear that he understands the difference between lying and "lying." You, on the other hand, think that both have the same effect on an audience. They don't. If you don't believe me, take a poll of all here who have been members of audiences.


As in "lying" isn't lying unless you get caught?

Seems to me if "lying" wasn't lying, there'd be nothing to catch.


Incorrect. You can be caught either way. The difference is in the consequences. There is no immorality attached to being caught onstage in either a verbal or visual "lie. " You will merely appear foolish.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Tom Sawyer » December 6th, 2017, 5:01 pm

Speaking theoretically, I would be more disappointed if I heard a magician say, "This hat is empty," if I could see plainly a cannonball residing therein -- than I would be if I simply saw him drop a cannonball into a profonde.

If I saw the cannonball in the hat, the disappointment would come from a deep-seated, perhaps unvoiced and unrecognized (and maybe irrational), feeling of "Hey, I thought I could trust you. I guess I can't."

--Tom Sawyer

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Tom Sawyer » December 6th, 2017, 5:10 pm

Oh, and by way of supplementing what I just said, I might think, "Hmmm. Maybe the mysteries I am seeing are based on the magician telling me he has done the impossible, rather than him actually doing the impossible."

But if he flops the cards down and I see five aces instead of four, I merely think, "The magic that this guy is doing must really be hard! Yes, I guess he made a mistake, but that was in the process of trying to amaze me and bring more happiness into my life. He was in there pitching, and that is more than most people are doing for me. So . . . no problem."

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 6th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:Oh, and by way of supplementing what I just said, I might think, "Hmmm. Maybe the mysteries I am seeing are based on the magician telling me he has done the impossible, rather than him actually doing the impossible."

But if he flops the cards down and I see five aces instead of four, I merely think, "The magic that this guy is doing must really be hard! Yes, I guess he made a mistake, but that was in the process of trying to amaze me and bring more happiness into my life. He was in there pitching, and that is more than most people are doing for me. So . . . no problem."


Precisely my point. I think a spectator would feel cheated if the performer had to gain his or her trust in order to persuade them that he had achieved "the impossible". If the key element in the effect were a mere assurance.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 6th, 2017, 6:17 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:Oh, and by way of supplementing what I just said, I might think, "Hmmm. Maybe the mysteries I am seeing are based on the magician telling me he has done the impossible, rather than him actually doing the impossible."

But if he flops the cards down and I see five aces instead of four, I merely think, "The magic that this guy is doing must really be hard! Yes, I guess he made a mistake, but that was in the process of trying to amaze me and bring more happiness into my life. He was in there pitching, and that is more than most people are doing for me. So . . . no problem."


ever worked a bar mitzvah?

i assure you, they aren't going to go through that degree of introspection.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 10:21 am

If those of you who claim that verbal assurances are sufficient to persuade an audience that something has occurred, I will take full advantage of this concept by writing the patter for my own version of The Indian Rope Trick.

I will record it and urge my local radio station to play it.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 7th, 2017, 10:35 am

I would imagine that barmitzvah audiences would see through lies quicker than anyone else!

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 10:58 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:If those of you who claim that verbal assurances are sufficient to persuade an audience that something has occurred really swear by it, I will take full advantage of this concept by writing the patter for my own version of The Indian Rope Trick.

I will record it and urge my local radio station to play it.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 11:05 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:If those of you who claim that verbal assurances are sufficient to persuade an audience that something has occurred, I will take full advantage of this concept by writing the patter for my own version of The Indian Rope Trick.

I will record it and urge my local radio station to play it.


who has made this claim?

you have to establish both conditions, that before and that after the magic occurred.

you keep making it clear keyes that you simply don't know how to construct
magic. or understand how to use lies as a technique. you're like the kid who says sleight of hand doesn't work.

it isn't the sleight of hand at fault

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 11:22 am

Brad Henderson wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
Yes. What a performer says and does on a stage is not lying. Your whole premise is incorrect.


Well if mine is incorrect, then so is Mr. Henderson's, as he quite explicitly claims that "lying" is just another method that magicians may use. I wonder why you direct your criticism solely at me.

If lying isn't lying when magicians do it on stage, then may we infer that deception isn't deception and that top hats aren't top hats?


it's all lies

the issue is that the audience accepts lies as a tool of art and theater. at
which point we return to the picasso quote which keyes has yet to refute.

keyes assumes all people consider lying an affront at all times.

Keyes seems to think of the magician as a lecturer not an artist.


I reject your idea that audiences accept lies as a magician's implement.

How can you be sure of this when you refuse to discuss it with them?

I rather think that no one would pay to see a performer pretend to work miracles unless he or she were strictly an actor whose gifts and stage presence were the chief reason for their attendance.

Very few magicians are great actors. Most of them are embarassinhly bad. It is the illusion they want to see. And I don't think they appreciate the performer "acting" the part of a magician so much as being one. That is, a demonstrator of wonders.

To ask them to trust you that you have done something in lieu of showing it is a let down.

Naturally,at some point, you need to deceive them (obscure something), but to simply lie is a dereliction of duty.

Storytelling is fine, but it's not something to rely on for your effect. By all means, enhance the routine using theatrical license, but if you go to far, you are an ACTOR ALONE and no longer a magician.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 11:33 am

no where have i said that you can get away with just telling them an effect has occurred.

i have said you have to establish conviction that both the initial condition is true and the final.

leave the straw men in the field please.

tell me, when a person claims they are a magician, you assume the audience asumes that means they use real magic, that the objects really disappear, that the women is really sawn in half?

now tell me, do you think people expect
lying as part of the magicians trade?

and then again - does it matter?

you're thinking like that purist who puts his own pleasure ahead of the audience

and you have slipped into the state of ignoring that the only way they can know you have lied is if you are incompetent.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 11:33 am

so let's see where we have gotten after 8 pages.

to do that, let's look at how we
started

Is it really a good idea for magicians to lie to the audience? I think not. It is the worst kind of trick, it is a cheat and nothing more. A swindle, a rip-off. And I feel that The Public will resent and dismiss such undehanded tactics.


a statement with nothing to back it up. it also presumes the audience is aware the magician has lied. how could they unless the performer is incompetant?

the claim is they will resent and dismiss such tactics. but there is no way for them to be aware those tactics are in place unless 1) the magician gets caught, in which case the game is up or 2) the magician tells them, which is foolish.

Do you not sneer at a performer that utters a blatant falsehood, do you not consider him a hack? An artless deceiver, no better than a crooked politician?


except keyes has gone on to claim that the actual BLATANT falsehoods - such as 'i can read minds' or 'i am a magician' are permissible. He confirms he is talking about things related to the trick itself, things the 'truth' of which only a magician
would know. Again, how would a real
person know it was a lie unless the performer was incompetent?

but let's say we as a magician DID know the performer lied. Would we consider him or her any of the above?

absolutely not. If the lie did its job well then he or she should be praised for knowing how to use a technique well

How is it that we can despise a magic shop for selling us a trick by making inaccurate claims in its description, yet have no qualms about violating our audience's trust?


because we aren't buying the trick to fool ourselves.

or at least, shouldn't be.

here is where keyes reveals the problem in his position - he is thinking like a magician.

he cannot see the world from the perspective of the laymen who has no need to be concerned with whether this trick works the same or different from
other tricks like it.

now to be fair, most magicians think like this. They buy tricks not to perform them but to satisfy the urge to know "how it's done." they are puzzles. and magicians get sad when the solution isn't at least as cool as the puzzle. remember keyes has defined the art of magic as presenting illusions for the audience to figure out.

if you present magic as puzzles to figure out then yes, the audience will think it unfair if you lie to them about the conditions. i recall this same objection was raised regarding mystery authors in peter sellers' murder by death. The main character condemns these famous writers from withholding clues and introducing characters in the final chapter.

this IS unfair IF you are a presenting puzzles

we are not puzzlers

then again we still have the question: if we do our job competently and the audience cannot 'figure out' how the trick was done - how would they know they were lied to? this disappointment keyes claims exists can only exist AFTER the secret has been exposed.

you're not a willful exposer are
you Mr Keyes? it seems like you may be given how proud you are of your methods

Marshall Brodien used to hype the TV Magic Mouse by saying that the secret to its animation was a "little motor". The company would be sued for false advertising today.



a silly comparison.

unless you want to make the case that someone could sue a magician for selling tickets to a magic show which didn't use 'real' magic.

as jackpot has pointed out. we have one set of expectations for sales men and another for entertainers and story tellers.

or do we call the ASPCA on that evil goldilocks and her mistreatment of those poor bears,


Do you not think that we could elevate the resprctability of Magic by sticking to visual illusions and dispensing with deliberate misstatements?
[/quote]

no

1) the mere presentation of visual illusions is not magic
2) how can we elevate respectability
by not lying if the audience can't know we are lying unless we are incompetant. so your advice only could help if we are bad magicians
3) isn't seeing bad magicians the real reason people don't respect the art?

so here is where this started and here are still the reasons why this 'opinion' of keyes' is baseless and without value.

everything else has just been an attempt to deflect from that.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 11:53 am

Alright, Mr. Hendeson. As your favourite gripe seems to be this "unless you are incompetent" ruse, let's talk about that.

I believe I have already spoken to this, but you apparently dismissed it.

Or rather "drowned it out" by claiming that magicians have the ability to Mesmerise spectators into believing that something they merely stated in fact took place.

I think it is quite obvious when a performer says something and fails to demonstrate it. If your contention is correct, that audiences know you tend to lie, such a condition would be highly suspect, would it not?

I can't assure you that everyone feels that way, but I am fairly certain that a great many do.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 11:56 am

when have i ever said that audiences believe something 'merely stated' has taken place.

show me where i wrote that (use the quotation figure please) and we can move forward

as i said you have to establish conviction in both the condition and the result.

show me where i said something 'merely stated' is sufficient for either.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 12:05 pm

I think it is quite obvious when a performer says something and fails to demonstrate it. If your contention is correct, that audiences know you tend to lie, such a condition would be highly suspect, would it not?


people know that magicians use sleight of hand but that doesn't prevent them from doing so invisibly, undetectably and successfully, does it?

just as there are magicians who know how to employ sleight of hand skillfully there are magicians who know how to employ verbal deception skillfully.

you may not be one of them

that's ok. we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

but is it wise to say sleight of hand doesn't work simply because you haven't mastered it?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 12:15 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:when have i ever said that audiences believe something 'merely stated' has taken place.

show me where i wrote that (use the quotation figure please) and we can move forward

as i said you have to establish conviction in both the condition and the result.

show me where i said something 'merely stated' is sufficient for either.


We were discussing The Bold Book Test, and you assured me that miscalling the page number was no biggie. Your claim was that it was "irrelevant".

In other words, that despite how crucial this element is to the effect, you don't need to let the volunteer see the actual page number until you have had a chance to crack the book anywhere you like.

That's the kind of thing that bothers me, and I think it brings down the general repute of the profession.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 12:28 pm

you seem to assume that all details are equal. if this were a page number trick you would be correct. but it isn't. it's a mind reading trick.

and the idea that the page number is a 'mere assertion' is innacurate.

you leave out the physical choreography and the structure of the process.

you fail to account for audiences expectations

if you put their attention on the process it will be scrutinized. so don't put the attention on the process, or rather give them something else more important to focus on at the moment.

it can be done. i have done it, but i'm less willing to give away those strategies here (largely because they are built on the work of others).

again, how can it bring down the repute of the profession when audiences are unaware it has happened?

the fact that this ruse is still being used daily by mind readers suggests that 1) it's a viable technique when handled skillfully and 2) isn't harming the reputation of the art

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 1:10 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:you seem to assume that all details are equal. if this were a page number trick you would be correct. but it isn't. it's a mind reading trick.

and the idea that the page number is a 'mere assertion' is innacurate.

you leave out the physical choreography and the structure of the process.

you fail to account for audiences expectations

if you put their attention on the process it will be scrutinized. so don't put the attention on the process, or rather give them something else more important to focus on at the moment.

it can be done. i have done it, but i'm less willing to give away those strategies here (largely because they are built on the work of others).

again, how can it bring down the repute of the profession when audiences are unaware it has happened?

the fact that this ruse is still being used daily by mind readers suggests that 1) it's a viable technique when handled skillfully and 2) isn't harming the reputation of the art


Brad, you have made me see the light. You are a true inspiration! You have given me the idea for my next routine. I will call it, "John Keyes' Bold Card Force".

Here is a precis:

Performer announces that he would like to demonstrate his psychic ability and draws the audience's attention a pack of cards.

"Let us use these cards. I mean, it doesn't really matter! We could use a book or a box of dominoes. We just happen to have a deck of cards.

"The important thing is that I am a prognosticator.

"Now, as I rifle the deck, someone please yell, 'Stop!'

"Very good! You have selected the...uh, Ten Of Spades! There. Can everyone see that? Let me bring it over to you, in case you have any doubts.

"Fine! Now, ladies and gentlemen, I would like you to designate someone else to assist in this experiment. This lady over here?

"Yes, you madame. Would you be kind enough to look under your seat? Would you please remove the envelope that is taped to the bottom of it?

"Remove the slip of paper and read it out loud if you will.

"The Ten Of Spades? Thank you very much!

Now, I suspect that some you are curious as to what all the other envelopes contain. You may remove them from under your chairs in order to verify that I have indeed made but one prediction, The Ten Of Spades.

"Ah! You are too kind. Thank you, thank you, thank you...."

Tell me, Mr. Henderson, Do you think I have a proper "effect" here?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 4:46 pm

you have the potential for an effect. but it is confused or at least i am.

what is added by having envelopes under anyone else's chair? what is in those wncelopes? if other predicted cards you have a non effect as you picked the lady to stand. you just picked the person who was in the seat you needed. if there is nothing in the envelopes how does that make the effect more clear or impactful ?

the moment of the effect is when the person sees the predicted card.

how does having other envelopes and having them open them take the moment that has already passed and increase its impact?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 5:21 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:you have the potential for an effect. but it is confused or at least i am.

what is added by having envelopes under anyone else's chair? what is in those wncelopes? if other predicted cards you have a non effect as you picked the lady to stand. you just picked the person who was in the seat you needed. if there is nothing in the envelopes how does that make the effect more clear or impactful ?

the moment of the effect is when the person sees the predicted card.

how does having other envelopes and having them open them take the moment that has already passed and increase its impact?


I was joking, Mr. Henderson.

That is a wretched excuse for a trick. Did you not catch the wry implication of "You have selected the, uh...Ten Of Spades"?

Who would be stupid enough to trust such s performer? And even if there are such idiots out there, I would rather play to the smartest. Like I said before: if you can't fool the wise ones, they may educate the dullards. And that is yet another way that the audience can discover that you lie, regardless of how competent you are.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 5:27 pm

except according to your script you show it to them.

do you not?

if you are trying to make a comparison to the hoy test you are making the same flaw again - the hoy test isn't a page number trick. you know that, right????

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 5:30 pm

but still, why in your imaginary trick did you add the envelopes and the anti-non climax of showing them empty?

it suggests you don't understand what the effect is and how to present it clearly

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 5:44 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:but still, why in your imaginary trick did you add the envelopes and the anti-non climax of showing them empty?

it suggests you don't understand what the effect is and how to present it clearly


I like Comedy Magic, remember? I thought it was funny. The absurdity of taking a bow for such a meaningless climax!

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 6:15 pm

is it absurd?
is it a climax?
is it comedy?

perhaps you should focus less on your own pleasure and more on the audiences.

i'm sure they'd like to climax every now and then

stop being so selfish.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 6:22 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:is it absurd?
is it a climax?
is it comedy?

perhaps you should focus less on your own pleasure and more on the audiences.

i'm sure they'd like to climax every now and then

stop being so selfish.


I suppose if I need to explain a joke it isn't funny. Perhaps I didn't write it well. Or maybe you misread it. The envelopes were not empty at the end, they all contained the same message ("You will pick the Ten Of Diamonds" or whatever).

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 6:37 pm

well, that's better. but how does it make the effect stronger? how does it make the effect clearer? how does it make the effect more interesting or relevant?

what's the advantage of having a prediction hidden in the first place? how does that serve the claim of the phenomena allegedly being presented?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 7:11 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:well, that's better. but how does it make the effect stronger? how does it make the effect clearer? how does it make the effect more interesting or relevant?

what's the advantage of having a prediction hidden in the first place? how does that serve the claim of the phenomena allegedly being presented?


It isn't suppose to do any of those things. I needed an ending for the gag snd it just struck me.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 7:27 pm

what was the gag ?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 7:33 pm

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Brad Henderson wrote:what was the gag ?


The gag was that it is hardly surprising that all of the envelopes contain the same message. The magician forced the card!

If all of the messges were different, then it might have at least been an impressive denouement.

As I said, I like to play to the smarties. The fact that most folks would be scratching their heads and wondering what happened just makes it more amusing.

Brad Henderson
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Location: austin, tx

Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 7:34 pm

for whom?

and how would the envelopes containing different cards be magical if you decide who looks under their seat?

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 7:53 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:for whom?

and how would the envelopes containing different cards be magical if you decide who looks under their seat?


No, The magician asks the audience to elect someone.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3596
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 10:14 pm

that's better.

but you have to have different messages in envelopes else you have a non effect

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 7th, 2017, 10:20 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:that's better.

but you have to have different messages in envelopes else you have a non effect


Exactly. That's the joke.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3596
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 7th, 2017, 10:30 pm

is it?

jokes are funny.

or is this more self pleasuring.

i think we have a name for your act

'The Great Onan - he's honestly confusing.'


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