Ennobling Magic

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
performer
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 1st, 2017, 9:41 am

Oh well, if you are doing it the same way that Jesus did you must be on the right track. I don't think he was much into telling lies. Unless he was the one who originally started the virgin birth story.
Brad should take a lesson from Jesus. He is trying to crucify you in the same way that Jesus was crucified. It didn't work though since he decided to bounce back and come back to life shortly afterwards. A bit like you are doing at every turn!

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 10:11 am

Mr. Henderson, I'm not copying your last comment as t's very long, but I will try to counter what you seem to think are salient points.

The fact that you remain sceptical of the practicality of my Water Into Wine act only serves to bolster its miraculous character.

Why would anyone suspect a bucket of
clear liquid to be white wine? No one knows what I am about to do with it, and no one has ever bothered to smell or taste it.

And if someone did, I would simply absnfon the trick and move on to another. In any case, the idea is to have deniability without ACTUAL DENIAL.

Most of Comedy Magic is about ineptitude, and I have a special preference for it, although I realise that is not your thing. But even serious prrformers can gain something from the concept of INCULPABILITY.

The wielding of "power" is often unpredictable (the "kick" of a rifle, an inadvertent explosion etc). Failing to control it adequately rather augments than diminshes its stunning effect.

If I have missed something you think I have yet to adress, please say again.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 10:26 am

the moment you poured the water into the pitcher we could see it wasn't water - especially as you have it setting next to a vase of actual water.

if i can see that, your audience can

and as anyone who has left an open bottle of wine on a table for anytime. you can smell it even if you don't try. a bucket of wine with that much surface area exposed would smell like a wino's underwear.

and if they DONT taste it at the beginning, you don't have an effect.

much like your ambitious card phase described elsewhere, this has never been performed successfully as a magic trick.this would fool no one (unless you are working for wino's who have soiled they underwear. for them, maybe . . . maybe)

and comedy magic is only one branch of magic and even then good comedy has a premise which holds the punchline in place. you can't have a punch line without a clear set up, and unless you can solve
the problems with the definition and characterization of this external power, you don't have a clear set up.

again, how many magicians have managed to thread this needle successful!

cardini
fred kaps and his homing card

and yes, power can be surprising. a kicking gun still requires the gun, powder, ammunition AND someone to pull the trigger. that means they need a reason to have the gun and pull the trigger.

so now you have to convince me that in this show i bought a ticket for, that starts at 8 pm every thursday, that this gun kicked unexpectedly for the first time and it just happened to result in - whatever.

how many times have we seen a magician truly convince the audience that the burning of the bill or the smashing of the watch were accidents?

i've seen it happen once.

but now you are telling us that an audience will accept that this gun kick was real, but that the idea of telling them the box is empty is a moral and dramatic affront.

again, you manage to go nowhere.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 10:33 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:Why would anyone suspect a bucket of
clear liquid to be white wine? No one knows what I am about to do with it,


well, in your script you say that we've run low on wine and that you will 'conjure up some more'.

then you send them for the not very clear liquid in the bucket

(and who has rain buckets?!!)

also, the title of your video is water to wine.

so there's that.

like i said, you have never done this in public.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 10:47 am

I think you are learning hiw to answer your questions, Mr. H.

You sort of got it when you said, "unless you are working in front of a bunch of winos" or wotds to that effect.

Not only is this act of mine specifically intended for dinner parties, but it is performed after a great deal if alcohol hasbeen consumed. Few if any could detect the scent of wine in the bucket.

And your tirade about needing a proper premise for the effect is misdirected if directed at me. The plot of the routine EXHAUSTIVELY details the process by which the final product is supposedly produced. Now, the fact that this process is spurious is not what I would call a"lie" within the context of the act, as the performer appears to genuinely BELIEVE that it can be done. When at last it is achieved, it doesn't really matter how, does it?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 11:26 am

if it doesn't matter how the effect is achieved , then it won't matter if it is accomplished with a lie, right?

a performer that genuinely believes the box is empty is identical to the performer who believes it when he says he is turning water into wine.

thank you for making the point i have made over 6 pages. if the effect is successful it doesn't matter how we got there. the lie is only a lie if revealed to be a lie. and there is no difference in being caught in a verbal lie and a non verbal one.

and even in a party, a bucket of wine being retrieved from outside would smell like wine

and if your audience is so drunk they can't smell it, they sure as hell aren't going to pay attention as you blather on in a bad pseudo british accent for 10
minutes, especially if they are in need of wine.

and the idea of making the process clear was not directed at you and this trick but the approach of being victim of the magic. you claim this is a superior approach (and as is usual, offer nothing to back it up)

it can work. certainly. but it isn't easy and i pointed out the obstacles so a thoughtful person reading the thread wouldn't think you actually knew what you were talking about

put up a video of that ambitious sequence please. i want to see you align those cards.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 11:47 am

Brad Henderson wrote:if it doesn't matter how, then it won't matter if it is accomplished with a lie

and even in a party, a bucket of wine being retrieved from outside would smell like wine

and if your audience is so drunk they can't smell it, they sure as hell aren't doing to pay attention as you blather on in a bad pseudo british accent.

and the idea of making the process clear was not directed at you and this trick but the approach of being victim of the magic. you claim this is a superior approach (and as is usual, offer nothing to back it up)

it can work. certainly. but it isn't easy and i pointed out the obstacles so a thoughtful person reading the thread wouldn't think you actually knew what you were talking about

put up a video of that ambitious sequence please. i want to see you align those cards.


I say "it doesn't matter" what caused the ultimate effect precisely because the performer is blameless for any chicanery if indeed there was any. But if you were to present this trick taking full responsibility for the method, then your moves would be suspect.

And I never charge a fee for my performances, so I am guiltless there as well.

Yes, there are always "obstacles; to overcome in the development of a routine. I findit very stimulating, and a rewarding challenge to tackle them. I assur you I hsve worked the "bugs" out of this effect.

As for the Ambitious Card thing that you keep mentioning. No, I have not peformed that. It was a suggestion to someoe in this forum who used it an example. But I see no reason why it wouldn't work perfectly.

It is easier than your typical top change, and it allows the magic to happen in the volunteers hands.

Let him or her search the deck, select a card and mark the face of it. Let them keep the deck andsimply ask for their card so that you can show it to everbody. As you turn to the crowd you can easily and undetectably couple the random card in your pocket with theirs, square them up and drop them both as one on top of the pack.

Seriously, Mr. H., what is your problem?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Bill Mullins » December 1st, 2017, 12:06 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:and comedy magic is only one branch of magic and even then good comedy has a premise which holds the punchline in place. you can't have a punch line without a clear set up,

Like Johnny Carson would say, "If they buy the premise, they buy the bit."
again, how many magicians have managed to thread this needle successful!

cardini
fred kaps and his homing card


Bob Sheets Homing Card as well. Same effect as Kaps, but Sheets's character and presentation make it unique.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 1:15 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:if it doesn't matter how, then it won't matter if it is accomplished with a lie

and even in a party, a bucket of wine being retrieved from outside would smell like wine

and if your audience is so drunk they can't smell it, they sure as hell aren't doing to pay attention as you blather on in a bad pseudo british accent.

and the idea of making the process clear was not directed at you and this trick but the approach of being victim of the magic. you claim this is a superior approach (and as is usual, offer nothing to back it up)

it can work. certainly. but it isn't easy and i pointed out the obstacles so a thoughtful person reading the thread wouldn't think you actually knew what you were talking about

put up a video of that ambitious sequence please. i want to see you align those cards.


I say "it doesn't matter" what caused the ultimate effect precisely because the performer is blameless for any chicanery if indeed there was any. But if you were to present this trick taking full responsibility for the method, then your moves would be suspect.

And I never charge a fee for my performances, so I am guiltless there as well.

Yes, there are always "obstacles; to overcome in the development of a routine. I findit very stimulating, and a rewarding challenge to tackle them. I assur you I hsve worked the "bugs" out of this effect.

As for the Ambitious Card thing that you keep mentioning. No, I have not peformed that. It was a suggestion to someoe in this forum who used it an example. But I see no reason why it wouldn't work perfectly.

It is easier than your typical top change, and it allows the magic to happen in the volunteers hands.

Let him or her search the deck, select a card and mark the face of it. Let them keep the deck andsimply ask for their card so that you can show it to everbody. As you turn to the crowd you can easily and undetectably couple the random card in your pocket with theirs, square them up and drop them both as one on top of the pack.

Seriously, Mr. H., what is your problem?


again, you make a baseless claim that the audience will react differently to catching you out if you don't pretend to be in control than if you do

nonsense

if you see the cards behind cardinis hands the failure is as equal as if you see them behind mcbride's.

and no, you haven't worked out the details of your imagined routine - if you had you would have the wine in the vase where the discoloration would be justified.

and again, who has a rain bucket??!

the reason i harp on your ambitious card is it proves to me that you have zero real world performing experience. but hey. show me wrong. show me a video of you doing it. do it in front of a 12 year old. let's see how good that palm replacement of yours is.

you have no real world performing experience

at least not as a magician - or a successful one.

you not only have no idea how to construct an effect you have zero understanding as to how real people think about magic.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 1:19 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:and comedy magic is only one branch of magic and even then good comedy has a premise which holds the punchline in place. you can't have a punch line without a clear set up,

Like Johnny Carson would say, "If they buy the premise, they buy the bit."
again, how many magicians have managed to thread this needle successful!

cardini
fred kaps and his homing card


Bob Sheets Homing Card as well. Same effect as Kaps, but Sheets's character and presentation make it unique.


so there's three.

;)

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jkeyes1000
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Re: Ennowbling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 1:44 pm

My claim is not baseless, Mr. Henderson. It is self evident.

I not only strive to avoid lies, but also potential "discoveries" of my methods.Both are closely related, as in the Water Into Wine bit.

Though THE TRUTH is that I prepared the buckets of "rainwater", I did not identify them as such until AFTER a volunteer had procured them.

Had he or she suspected that the bucket contained wine, I would have said something like, "Oh, really? In that case I will use this pitcher instead", and perhaps do an entirely different routine. Minimal risk at all times.

I try to avoid methods that can either be "seen through" visually or contemplatively.

There is always an "out" from eitherpoint of view.

You like to harp on petty details, as if you think you are going to bring down the whole house of cards, Mr. Henderson.

Your repeated mention of the tint of the vase water is childish. Fact is, that all of the "water" I pour into the tub is white wine, whether it be from the pail or the vase.

It might have been a trick of the lighting or perhaps, I resorted to actual water in the vase because it was merely a demonstration, I don't actually recall. But in performsnce, I use no actual water of any kind. This would only dilute the beverage and convince no one that it was proper wine.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 1:58 pm

there is nothing self evident about it

that's why it's a baseless claim.

if it were self evident we wouldn't be arguing, would we?

you claim being caught in a verbal lie is different from being caught in a physical one.

you claim that the magician who gets caught back palming a card while intentionally plucking cards from the air is in some way more damaged than the one who gets caught while feigning that the cards appear beyond his or her control.

sorry, your assertion is NOT self evident

and still begs the issue: if you don't get caught, they will never know.

as to your wine debacle.

and now you're just dancing

first you claim they don't know what you will do with the 'water' but your script tell them

then you say you send someone out for a rain bucket but that you don't tell them to go get a rain bucket

uh huh

that's not what you did in the video.

'but id love to hear that direction - go outside and find a - well, i can't tell you what until you bring it to me. but go get that thing '

or is this a special trick you reserve for only those times when someone in the group has brought a bucket filled with wine to the party and you just take advantage of the moment?

and yes, id also love to hear that dance "i will turn water into wine, go get that thing i cannot mention.'

spec: 'you mean this bucket of wine?'

keyes: er uh ah, pick a card

spec: but what about the water to . . .

keyes: any card

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 2:24 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:there is nothing self evident about it

that's why it's a baseless claim.

if it were self evident we wouldn't be arguing, would we?

you claim being caught in a verbal lie is different from being caught in a physical one.

you claim that the magician who gets caught back palming a card while intentionally plucking cards from the air is in some way more damaged than the one who gets caught while feigning that the cards appear beyond his or her control.

sorry, your assertion is NOT self evident

and still begs the issue: if you don't get caught, they will never know.

as to your wine debacle.

and now you're just dancing

first you claim they don't know what you will do with the 'water' but your script tell them

then you say you send someone out for a rain bucket but that you don't tell them to go get a rain bucket

uh huh

that's not what you did in the video.

'but id love to hear that direction - go outside and find a - well, i can't tell you what until you bring it to me. but go get that thing '

or is this a special trick you reserve for only those times when someone in the group has brought a bucket filled with wine to the party and you just take advantage of the moment?

and yes, id also love to hear that dance "i will turn water into wine, go get that thing i cannot mention.'

spec: 'you mean this bucket of wine?'

keyes: er uh ah, pick a card

spec: but what about the water to . . .

keyes: any card


The distinction I am making betwen "lying" and "fudging" is that if I pointed to a bucket and said, "Please fetch me that rainwater", I would be fibbing. But if I say, "Look about for some rainwater" and they find what I have placed on the sideboard, then I am not.

This is not self evident to you?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 1st, 2017, 6:05 pm

Bloody hell! Are you two still arguing? At this rate it won't be too long before you start to rival the Erdnase thread!

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 6:27 pm

performer wrote:Bloody hell! Are you two still arguing? At this rate it won't be too long before you start to rival the Erdnase thread!


I think we stopped arguing a few pages back, Mark. It's more of a stubborn redundancy at this point. Him and his, "But how will anyone know if I am a liar unless I am incompetent?".

I simply can't find a tactful way of telling him we already know.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 6:43 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:there is nothing self evident about it

that's why it's a baseless claim.

if it were self evident we wouldn't be arguing, would we?

you claim being caught in a verbal lie is different from being caught in a physical one.

you claim that the magician who gets caught back palming a card while intentionally plucking cards from the air is in some way more damaged than the one who gets caught while feigning that the cards appear beyond his or her control.

sorry, your assertion is NOT self evident

and still begs the issue: if you don't get caught, they will never know.

as to your wine debacle.

and now you're just dancing

first you claim they don't know what you will do with the 'water' but your script tell them

then you say you send someone out for a rain bucket but that you don't tell them to go get a rain bucket

uh huh

that's not what you did in the video.

'but id love to hear that direction - go outside and find a - well, i can't tell you what until you bring it to me. but go get that thing '

or is this a special trick you reserve for only those times when someone in the group has brought a bucket filled with wine to the party and you just take advantage of the moment?

and yes, id also love to hear that dance "i will turn water into wine, go get that thing i cannot mention.'

spec: 'you mean this bucket of wine?'

keyes: er uh ah, pick a card

spec: but what about the water to . . .

keyes: any card


The distinction I am making betwen "lying" and "fudging" is that if I pointed to a bucket and said, "Please fetch me that rainwater", I would be fibbing. But if I say, "Look about for some rainwater" and they find what I have placed on the sideboard, then I am not.

This is not self evident to you?


and i'm telling you that the audience can't tell the difference unless you get caught, and if you do get caught it doesn't matter which way you phrased the question.

to say that there would be a difference is not self evident.

and tell me, when you say 'look around for some rain water' 1) how would i know that's rainwater in the bucket unless i taste it. it's black. you can't tell what it is by just looking, so your face will get close and you will know it's wine. afterall you told them you were turning water to wine. you think an audience can magically detect a lie but not think to check that the liquid which has been promised to be turned to wine isn't already wine?

then 2) who the f^%k has buckets of rain water laying around? you're want us to believe that, while at someone's house, you ask for some rainwater and a person says 'wait, i'll go outside and see if they have a rain bucket' and they bring in this bucket filled with water that smells like wine and the host says 'we have a rain bucket? when did we get a rain bucket?'

keyes: er uh pick a card???!!!

or if doing it at your house the audience wouldn't suspect it from the outset?

again, never been performed for anyone other than yourself
Last edited by Brad Henderson on December 1st, 2017, 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 6:44 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
performer wrote:Bloody hell! Are you two still arguing? At this rate it won't be too long before you start to rival the Erdnase thread!


I think we stopped arguing a few pages back, Mark. It's more of a stubborn redundancy at this point. Him and his, "But how will anyone know if I am a liar unless I am incompetent?".

I simply can't find a tactful way of telling him we already know.


which is?

and how is that different from magical detecting a non verbal lie?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 7:54 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:there is nothing self evident about it

that's why it's a baseless claim.

if it were self evident we wouldn't be arguing, would we?

you claim being caught in a verbal lie is different from being caught in a physical one.

you claim that the magician who gets caught back palming a card while intentionally plucking cards from the air is in some way more damaged than the one who gets caught while feigning that the cards appear beyond his or her control.

sorry, your assertion is NOT self evident

and still begs the issue: if you don't get caught, they will never know.

as to your wine debacle.

and now you're just dancing

first you claim they don't know what you will do with the 'water' but your script tell them

then you say you send someone out for a rain bucket but that you don't tell them to go get a rain bucket

uh huh

that's not what you did in the video.

'but id love to hear that direction - go outside and find a - well, i can't tell you what until you bring it to me. but go get that thing '

or is this a special trick you reserve for only those times when someone in the group has brought a bucket filled with wine to the party and you just take advantage of the moment?

and yes, id also love to hear that dance "i will turn water into wine, go get that thing i cannot mention.'

spec: 'you mean this bucket of wine?'

keyes: er uh ah, pick a card

spec: but what about the water to . . .

keyes: any card


The distinction I am making betwen "lying" and "fudging" is that if I pointed to a bucket and said, "Please fetch me that rainwater", I would be fibbing. But if I say, "Look about for some rainwater" and they find what I have placed on the sideboard, then I am not.

This is not self evident to you?


and i'm telling you that the audience can't tell the difference unless you get caught, and if you do get caught it doesn't matter which way you phrased the question.

to say that there would be a difference is not self evident.

and tell me, when you say 'look around for some rain water' 1) how would i know that's rainwater in the bucket unless i taste it. it's black. you can't tell what it is by just looking, so your face will get close and you will know it's wine. afterall you told them you were turning water to wine. you think an audience can magically detect a lie but not think to check that the liquid which has been promised to be turned to wine isn't already wine?

then 2) who the f^%k has buckets of rain water laying around? you're want us to believe that, while at someone's house, you ask for some rainwater and a person says 'wait, i'll go outside and see if they have a rain bucket' and they bring in this bucket filled with water that smells like wine and the host says 'we have a rain bucket? when did we get a rain bucket?'

keyes: er uh pick a card???!!!

or if doing it at your house the audience wouldn't suspect it from the outset?

again, never been performed for anyone other than yourself


I wish I could cut and paste with this smartphone but it's too much for me.

The DIFFERENCE (since you asked) is that because of the way I requested the water, no one can ever shout, "But you said it was rainwater!" No, I asked for rainwater, and somebody else gave it to me. I merely assumed, like everybody else.

And I would never anounce that I am going to turn water into wine! The audience has no idea what I want the water for.

This trick is not for everyone, obviously. It is mine, and it does require a certain amount of psychology in order to induce a volunteer to find the "rainwater"

Let me see if I can succinctly illustrate this.

I would choose my words very carefully. I would ssy something like, "Is there a measure of rainwater in the house? I realise some of you eccentrics ptefer to dilute your beverages with it".

A few will look up, someone might laugh. Then someone will spot the bucket and point it out.

And as I said, the worst that could happen is that they discover that it is wine. Even so, I would not be "caught". I could easily dismiss the fact without being suspected of anything.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 1st, 2017, 10:08 pm

It just occurred to me that I posted a more modern vesion of my "Water Into Real Wine" several years ago. If Brad or anyone else is still hung up on my obsolete use of "rainwater" they might want to peruse my clever alternative. Or if you simply crave something else to criticise.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=42544

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 1st, 2017, 11:29 pm

again i call bs

you might as well ask if anyone has an 18th century sousa phone laying about.

and i love how you imagine this would play out

keyes :'is there any rain water about'

spec: who the hell has rain water laying about?

keyes: are you sure there isn't any. like over there in the corner, you know, where people would normally keep their rain water buckets

spec: you mean this bucket. doesn't smell like rain water, smells like a bucket of wine

keyes: pick a card.

but your imaginary trick is one thing.

the issue is the baseless belief that 1) a detected verbal lie elicits a different response than a detected non verbal one
and
2) that getting busted playing the role of someone who is affecting the magic produces a different option about you or magician than when getting busted playing the role of someone for whom the magic happens

let's not get bogged down in the details of
the trick you imagine will work in the real
world


let's focus on the claims you started this thread to make

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 9:01 am

Brad Henderson wrote:again i call bs

you might as well ask if anyone has an 18th century sousa phone laying about.

and i love how you imagine this would play out

keyes :'is there any rain water about'

spec: who the hell has rain water laying about?

keyes: are you sure there isn't any. like over there in the corner, you know, where people would normally keep their rain water buckets

spec: you mean this bucket. doesn't smell like rain water, smells like a bucket of wine

keyes: pick a card.

but your imaginary trick is one thing.

the issue is the baseless belief that 1) a detected verbal lie elicits a different response than a detected non verbal one
and
2) that getting busted playing the role of someone who is affecting the magic produces a different option about you or magician than when getting busted playing the role of someone for whom the magic happens

let's not get bogged down in the details of
the trick you imagine will work in the real
world


let's focus on the claims you started this thread to make


I couldn't agree more with your last line, Mr. Henderson.

It wasn't me that complicated the issue with petty squabbling, it was you, And now that you realise the vanity of that approach, you return to the very heart of matter. Which you tried to quell with a quote from Picasso.

I certainly don't mind all the counter arguments. That, as I have said, was the purpose. To stimulate debate.

But my initial post merely asked (I forget the precise words), is it really a good idea to employ lies, when you could get caught telling them, and they are actually unnecessary?

While you may disagree with my opinion, you can hatdly find fault with the facts of the matter.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jackpot » December 2nd, 2017, 10:27 am

Mr. Keyes,

Compared to your initial post, your original position appears to have modified as the topic progressed. Originally you asked, "Is it really a good idea for magicians to lie to the audience? I think not." You were very black and white about lying. You also wrote something which seemed to indicate you had a chip on your shoulder: "Before any of you hotshots try to put me in my place...." There are other, less contentious ways to ask people to hear you out before replying or forming an opinion.

Some, including myself, asked for some clarity from you, and you gradually provided it.

We have moved from your original post where it sounded like these two lies:
"Honey, don't wait up. I have to work late tonight." (Being used to cover infidelity)
and
"Honey, your hair looks nice." (Rather than saying "Your hair looks horrid.")
were equally repugnant.

I did watch your video last night. I hope you don't take offense if I say I found it amusing for all the wrong reasons.

I also appreciate that you helped show that an old grafter's heart isn't quite as small as he let's on. I hope he doesn't take offense, but performer's concern for your well being was touching.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » December 2nd, 2017, 10:29 am

Someone please put this thread out of its misery.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 10:55 am

performer wrote:Oh well, if you are doing it the same way that Jesus did you must be on the right track. I don't think he was much into telling lies. Unless he was the one who originally started the virgin birth story.
Brad should take a lesson from Jesus. He is trying to crucify you in the same way that Jesus was crucified. It didn't work though since he decided to bounce back and come back to life shortly afterwards. A bit like you are doing at every turn!


Somehow I overlooked your comment when it was posted, Mark. Maybe a technical glitch. I could swear it just apeared this morning!

Yes, the whole idea of the act was to recreate the Biblical story, and offer my speculative view of how it might have been done.

It has always bothered me that folks presume the man was a myth because his deeds were considered truly impossible.

I wanted to show also how consciously avoiding lies can produce a greater effect.

Compare the typical Water Into Wine with this bit. In the former, you only get red water. And whether or not it is safe to drink, it is certainly vapid.

Someone like Brad would deny anyone the right to fetch the "water" and positively forbid them to sample it!

Thanks for the kind words.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 2nd, 2017, 12:26 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote::

I couldn't agree more with your last line, Mr. Henderson.

It wasn't me that complicated the issue with petty squabbling, it was you, And now that you realise the vanity of that approach, you return to the very heart of matter. Which you tried to quell with a quote from Picasso.

I certainly don't mind all the counter arguments. That, as I have said, was the purpose. To stimulate debate.

But my initial post merely asked (I forget the precise words), is it really a good idea to employ lies, when you could get caught telling them, and they are actually unnecessary?

While you may disagree with my opinion, you can hatdly find fault with the facts of the matter.


you haven't presented a single fact in this entire exchange. you've made a baselsss claim and danced like a drunken monkey to avoid admitting that there is no mechanism for an audience to know you have lied without you being incompetent and you have never provided evidence of ANY kind to establish that the results of being caught in a verbal v, non verbal lie, or being caught out out while playing someone in control v not in control
would be different

there are no facts to back up your 'opinion'. and while you are entitled to have an opinion, calling a bull [censored] statement an 'opinion' doesn't make the statement true.

you have been given dozen of opportunities to support
you claim and instead you dance the drunken monkey dance

ypur piece wasn't commented on by me for the sake of vanity, it was to demonstrate how you clearly lack the real world performing experience from which to evaluate your own claims. i'm all for arm chair theorists, but unless those theories can be back up with facts and proven correct in the crucible of performance (for real people) they remain dubious in value.

and just so you know, i pressed for the video hoping that in performance you might actually offer some great lesson that demonstrated and proved that your approach had merit. maybe you just weren't articulating it clearly or were mistaken as to the mchanism of difference. i sincerely wanted to give you a chance. perhaps you had greatness in you that we could learn from.

life is filled with disappointment

if you still believe your 'opinion' has any merit you, like with your wine trick, are the only person in the room you are deceiving.

and i stand by the picasso quote you claimed could be shown to be false but, like every other claim you have made, was never supported with either fact or argument, only the repetitive spin of the drunken monkey.

you once said that you, the master debater, may not have won all arguments but never lost one

apparently there is a first time for everything, right kid?

but that's a bit harsh of me. you have only truly lost if you walk away refusing on some self defeating principle unwilling
to change your thinking.

but that's your choice.

but please do us all a service and at least walk away.

come back when you have an idea you can back up. then we can have a real discussion.

watching the drunken monkey is fun,
for a while. heck, we even got mark to show concern for well being of the trapped primate. that should have been your canary in the coal mine, but no one can accuse you of having any idea what
your audience is thinking.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 2nd, 2017, 12:32 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
performer wrote:Oh well, if you are doing it the same way that Jesus did you must be on the right track. I don't think he was much into telling lies. Unless he was the one who originally started the virgin birth story.
Brad should take a lesson from Jesus. He is trying to crucify you in the same way that Jesus was crucified. It didn't work though since he decided to bounce back and come back to life shortly afterwards. A bit like you are doing at every turn!


Somehow I overlooked your comment when it was posted, Mark. Maybe a technical glitch. I could swear it just apeared this morning!

Yes, the whole idea of the act was to recreate the Biblical story, and offer my speculative view of how it might have been done.

It has always bothered me that folks presume the man was a myth because his deeds were considered truly impossible.

I wanted to show also how consciously avoiding lies can produce a greater effect.

Compare the typical Water Into Wine with this bit. In the former, you only get red water. And whether or not it is safe to drink, it is certainly vapid.

Someone like Brad would deny anyone the right to fetch the "water" and positively forbid them to sample it!

Thanks for the kind words.


why would i forbid someone from fetching anything? and i'm the on making the case that if they DONT taste it you have no effect.

your performance offers no evidence that avoiding lies impacts the effect at all

how could it?

the audience only knows they are lies after you got caught.

thus goes tha drunken monkey

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 12:37 pm

Jackpot wrote:Mr. Keyes,

Compared to your initial post, your original position appears to have modified as the topic progressed. Originally you asked, "Is it really a good idea for magicians to lie to the audience? I think not." You were very black and white about lying. You also wrote something which seemed to indicate you had a chip on your shoulder: "Before any of you hotshots try to put me in my place...." There are other, less contentious ways to ask people to hear you out before replying or forming an opinion.

Some, including myself, asked for some clarity from you, and you gradually provided it.

We have moved from your original post where it sounded like these two lies:
"Honey, don't wait up. I have to work late tonight." (Being used to cover infidelity)
and
"Honey, your hair looks nice." (Rather than saying "Your hair looks horrid.")
were equally repugnant.

I did watch your video last night. I hope you don't take offense if I say I found it amusing for all the wrong reasons.

I also appreciate that you helped show that an old grafter's heart isn't quite as small as he let's on. I hope he doesn't take offense, but performer's concern for your well being was touching.


I quite agree that the video is vurtuslly unwatchable. And I must confess that I posted it here primarily to bait Mr. Henderson.

I don't believe that I have "modified" my opinion so much as unfolded it.

I do take my definitions very seriously. When one speaks of "lies" one may choose any shade of meaning one likes, but when defending oneself from the charge of lying, one need only be true to the proper wording in the dictionary.

I understand the need to be suggestive, and to feign ignorance (which some call a "lie of omission"), but these are seperate issues. I am concerned here only with dispelling the SENSE of disreputability caused by explicit claims of The Impossible.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 2nd, 2017, 12:58 pm

dance monkey. dance.

keyes: peer inside the box. a void of
possibilities. who knows what lies ahead

spec: there's a mirror in there.

keyes: all life is a mirror is it not. look a bunny

spec: you're lying. the box wasn't empty. there's a mirror

keyes: dear lad, i refer you to this dictionary. please look up word lie. as i never stated outright . . .

spec: but there's a mirror. you lied

keyes: tsk tsk. to lie is to utter a verbal

spec: it's not what you said it would be. you showed it to be empty. you lied

keyes; dear boy, as an expert grammarian i would nev . . . hello? . . . where'd he go?


(to find someone who does magic successfully. that's someone who focuses on the audiences experience and not baseless rules that serve to please only himself)

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 1:05 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
performer wrote:Oh well, if you are doing it the same way that Jesus did you must be on the right track. I don't think he was much into telling lies. Unless he was the one who originally started the virgin birth story.
Brad should take a lesson from Jesus. He is trying to crucify you in the same way that Jesus was crucified. It didn't work though since he decided to bounce back and come back to life shortly afterwards. A bit like you are doing at every turn!


Somehow I overlooked your comment when it was posted, Mark. Maybe a technical glitch. I could swear it just apeared this morning!

Yes, the whole idea of the act was to recreate the Biblical story, and offer my speculative view of how it might have been done.

It has always bothered me that folks presume the man was a myth because his deeds were considered truly impossible.

I wanted to show also how consciously avoiding lies can produce a greater effect.

Compare the typical Water Into Wine with this bit. In the former, you only get red water. And whether or not it is safe to drink, it is certainly vapid.

Someone like Brad would deny anyone the right to fetch the "water" and positively forbid them to sample it!

Thanks for the kind words.


why would i forbid someone from fetching anything? and i'm the on making the case that if they DONT taste it you have no effect.

your performance offers no evidence that avoiding lies impacts the effect at all

how could it?

the audience only knows they are lies after you got caught.

thus goes tha drunken monkey


My point here (which you miss again) is that there us NO WAY to get caught in a lie if you don't tell one.

And please tell us how you would perform the typical "store bought" Water Into Wine trick to better effect than my version. Explan how your beautiful lies could amaze the crowd more effectively.

That's putting the shoe on the other foot. If you dispute that my way is better, then show how yours is

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 2nd, 2017, 2:04 pm

I am actually finding this thread very useful but in a way neither of you might suspect. I am annotating the Royal Road to Card Magic and am finding it unadulterated torture. The problem is that the book is so well written and comprehensive I find it difficult to add very much. However, I am not doing badly at it so far. But this is how this thread is useful to me. It has now reached 6 pages. I am up to Chapter 6 of the annotations and am now starting Chapter 7.

This thread keeps me from procrastinating because I am playing a mental game in my mind that I am having a race between my writing and this thread. I can't let the number of pages of this thread overtake the number of chapters I am annotating. If I see you two getting ahead of me I am forced to stop procrastinating and continue with my herculean efforts. So far you are setting a very good pace for me to follow. I urge you both to continue talking nonsense and the more the better. If you can keep it up to 20 pages which is the amount of chapters in the Royal Road and I keep up with you, you can both congratulate yourselves for helping me overcome writer's procrastination and praise will be given to you for assisting in the historical annotations of a classic example of magic literature.

I might even thank you both in the acknowlegements section of the book if you can keep it up.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 2nd, 2017, 2:46 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:
Somehow I overlooked your comment when it was posted, Mark. Maybe a technical glitch. I could swear it just apeared this morning!

Yes, the whole idea of the act was to recreate the Biblical story, and offer my speculative view of how it might have been done.

It has always bothered me that folks presume the man was a myth because his deeds were considered truly impossible.

I wanted to show also how consciously avoiding lies can produce a greater effect.

Compare the typical Water Into Wine with this bit. In the former, you only get red water. And whether or not it is safe to drink, it is certainly vapid.

Someone like Brad would deny anyone the right to fetch the "water" and positively forbid them to sample it!

Thanks for the kind words.


why would i forbid someone from fetching anything? and i'm the on making the case that if they DONT taste it you have no effect.

your performance offers no evidence that avoiding lies impacts the effect at all

how could it?

the audience only knows they are lies after you got caught.

thus goes tha drunken monkey


My point here (which you miss again) is that there us NO WAY to get caught in a lie if you don't tell one.
lis


oh, drunken monkey.

first - don't caught. as i have said, the only way they know you have lied is if you are incompetent.

second, you have written yourself to accomplish any effect the magician must misrepresent reality. a coin isn't really placed in the hand but the magician makes it look so.

if you get caught it doesn't matter if you accompanied the act with a verbal utterance or not.

the only way they know you lie, is if they SEE or otherwise perceive that reality isn't what you are representing.

the means of that misrepresentation is irrelevant.

period

how many times do i have to say it before you actually acknowledge it

maybe if i spoke in a bad faux british accent with lots of meaningless pauses and words of another era it would sink in?

no

no it wouldn't

because you aren't arguing. you aren't debating. you are a drunken monkey who can only say the same thing again and again. you've deluded yourself into thinking you have made a point just as you have deluded yourself into thinking that in your water to wine trick you have an effect.

if the method of proof of transformation is the taste - if they don't taste it before the transformation you have nothing.
Last edited by Brad Henderson on December 2nd, 2017, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 2:47 pm

performer wrote:I am actually finding this thread very useful but in a way neither of you might suspect. I am annotating the Royal Road to Card Magic and am finding it unadulterated torture. The problem is that the book is so well written and comprehensive I find it difficult to add very much. However, I am not doing badly at it so far. But this is how this thread is useful to me. It has now reached 6 pages. I am up to Chapter 6 of the annotations and am now starting Chapter 7.

This thread keeps me from procrastinating because I am playing a mental game in my mind that I am having a race between my writing and this thread. I can't let the number of pages of this thread overtake the number of chapters I am annotating. If I see you two getting ahead of me I am forced to stop procrastinating and continue with my herculean efforts. So far you are setting a very good pace for me to follow. I urge you both to continue talking nonsense and the more the better. If you can keep it up to 20 pages which is the amount of chapters in the Royal Road and I keep up with you, you can both congratulate yourselves for helping me overcome writer's procrastination and praise will be given to you for assisting in the historical annotations of a classic example of magic literature.

I might even thank you both in the acknowlegements section of the book if you can keep it up.


Very good, Mark! I will keep pace with Mr. Henderson. I shouldn't give the game away, but I'm waiting for him to sally forth with another round of false accusations and deliberate misintepretations of my philosophy. After which I shall hit him with the classic counter punch of "That's just a bunch of wicker men!" Lastly, I shall point out to everyone that he is merely being true to his nature as a bluffer, which I am most certainly not. Then you can all decide the winner.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 2nd, 2017, 5:20 pm

Well, I am into Chapter 7 now so I am ahead of you. Alas it is a very long chapter so both of you may well catch up on me. In fact you probably will as this is a suitably verbose thread.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 2nd, 2017, 10:31 pm

Mr. Henderson, you make two interesting statements. One, that I have lost the debate. And two, that I have presented no facts in support of my opinion.

The only way I could lose is for you to prove me wrong. For this was your contention from the start. Quoting Picasso doesn't cut it. Yet nearly seven pages later, you are still flogging the idea that ART=ILLUSION=DECEPTION=LIE.

That all kinds of falsehood are essentialy the same.

But verbal lies tend to be taken more personally. You say your audience won't know you are lying unless you get caught. I say simply that they are unnecessary.

So far, I have stated the facts that, a) lies are not generally appreciated, and b) they are not required in order to deceive.

You respond with YOUR BASELESS OPINION that, though lies are not necessary, they enhance rather than detract from The Magical Experience.

You chase your tail, round and round, first by saying that audiences are SURELY okay with lying because they lnow it's just another form of deception. Indeed, another form of art!

Yet you would never discuss your "methods" with them. Why not, if they are already accepting? Where are your facts, Mr. Henderson?

Everyone that is following this thread has seen me tear down every bit of wet tissue you have posted. Including yout absurd suggestion that I don't know how to read a dictionary. As tedious as this is, I am going to explain just how to do it. You take the first entry as the GENERAL or "proper" definition, and the "1.1", "1.2", "1.3", etc., are the subsidiary definitions, which include colloquial phrases in common use.

In other words, I have taken up the challenge to prove you wrong, and done so
on numerous occasions. You however, have proved me wrong in nothing.

When you call someone's bluff, Mr. Henderson, you had better make sure they are bluffing.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » December 3rd, 2017, 1:42 am


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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 3rd, 2017, 10:46 am

1) the oed (your source) is a descriptive dictionary which means all meanings are derived from how they are used. you originally claimed that the secondary definitions are 'vernacular' and now they are 'colloquial'. though dictionary's often identify actual colloquialism in the same way they identify archaic uses. the oed also states it is not to be taken as a guide to PROPER usage, so your appeal to the dictionary is irrelevant especially when the people who, upon seeing the coin in your hand, call you liar.

2) all art is a lie. but all lies are not necessarily deceptions. and not all deceptions are magic. so your equation grossly misrepresents my position. but if that's the best you got . . .

3) who is to determine if the lie is necessary? a good rule of art is if something isn't necessary or doesn't benefit the whole of the experience then it isn't needed. but who is to say when a lie is or isn't needed other than the artist?

the audience certainly doesn't care - because they won't know unless you are incompetent.

now, dumb lies or lies that call attention to the wrong thing are to be avoided, not because they are lies but because they are employed poorly.

of course the issue isn't that it's a lie because true statements poorly
employed accomplish the same result. saying 'this is an ordinary deck' (when it is true( creates more suspicion than any lie i can think of.

as michael weber said, sometimes the shortest distance between two points is a straight lie

are you saying michael weber is wrong?

4) and the audience can be aware that a method is in the tool box of a performer and it still be to the performers detriment to remind them of it. You don't see an actor telling the audience the blood is fake or lead a discussion on trap doors.

having said that i often discuss methods with my audience, especially early on, in order to address what goes on in their mind and help them move past it.

then again, usually when i do this, i'm lying. 'demonstrations of sleight of hand' are often self working and cases of "psychological insight" are usually sleight of hand.

the audience came to feel magic. not solve
puzzles. to make the focus on methods is to miss the point. (in my case i address methods to help move them past that stage and relax into the experience of magic)


5) you say the audience takes greater affront at a verbal lie than a non verbal one. but 1) how will they know you have been lied to unless you are incompetent 2) what evidence do you have that when busted they will focus on the verbal deception and not the coin in your hand or mirror in the box? until you establish those two things your 'case' is baseless

6) and when it comes to lies, why are some lies ok and some not? either the audience is appalled by them or they or not? and if they are not appalled by all of them, why are some lies (ex presentational) acceptable and others (methodological) not.

you seem to think an actor claiming to be a prince is ok, but when he says he will slit his protagonist with the sharp razor he has violated the sanctity of honor.

again keyes,
you make claims but never back them up.

if that's "winning," then i want no part of it

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby jkeyes1000 » December 3rd, 2017, 11:55 am

Mark should be pleased. We must be nearing page seven by now.

I am not going to bore anyone with reiterating already redundant discussions. I don't know where you got the idea that the OED is not in the business of providing PROPER definitions. It has always distinguished itself as both an authority on correct usage AND the various corruptions found in literature and common vernacular. It does not REJECT dubious forms, but it certainly does not place them at the top of the list.

Anyway, I feel like livening up this chatter.

Last night, I was reminded of James Randi, and his "Chasing The Chimera" lectures. Although he is iconically known as an "honest liar", he never verbally lied to his audience. That would have been unfair. He would start off by saying "This is sort of a challenge..." and dare a bunch of academics to guess how they were being deceived.

Randi boasted that no one had ever discovered the secret to this trick, but I took up the matter and posted a series of comments on YouTube which the JREF deleted rather unsportingly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHN2kngOtk4&sns=em

The point is that, regardless of how "weasely" one's speech may be, outright lies are more likely to get you tarred and featheted. Why rusk it?

And whether or not YOU get caught, someone else is bound to. Is it not better to distinguish yourself from those "incompetents" by assuring the crowd that, though you may use deceptions, you do not make false statements?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby Brad Henderson » December 3rd, 2017, 12:10 pm

starting a show. quick reply:

so if i posted a video of randi lying to an audience would you recant?

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 3rd, 2017, 12:19 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Mark should be pleased. We must be nearing page seven by now.


I am on Chapter seven but I think you are going to catch up soon and may even overtake me. I am not in the mood for writing because I have a bad cold. Interestingly enough I haven't found much advice in the way of telling lies in the Royal Road to Card Magic. The nearest I have come to it is this little paragraph which might give you and Brad some fodder to chew over the matter. They use the term "fairy tale" rather than the awful word "lie" which I think is terribly quaint and very nice indeed.

"It is not so much what you do as what you make the onlookers think you do. The preceding trick affords an example of this fact. Merely to take the cards and go through the motions of apparently reversing them would be a tame affair, a mere curiosity. Asserting that the cards are intelligent, that they can be trained to act by themselves, puts a different complexion on the matter. The onlookers are amused by your fairy tale; they take a greater interest in the performance and sometimes actually persuade themselves that there might be something in it after all"

I took this quite seriously when I first read it 56 years ago. And I still do. Mind you I do have doubts about the statement that some people would be daft enough to persuade themselves there might be something in it after all. But then I have never performed in California.

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Re: Ennobling Magic

Postby performer » December 3rd, 2017, 12:22 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:starting a show. quick reply:

so if i posted a video of randi lying to an audience would you recant?


Oh, Randi is always telling lies! I don't think that counts somehow!


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